Allawi: I Refused to See Saddam Detained by the Occupation

Former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi during his interview with Editor-in-Chief Ghassan Charbel (Asharq Al-Awsat)
Former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi during his interview with Editor-in-Chief Ghassan Charbel (Asharq Al-Awsat)
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Allawi: I Refused to See Saddam Detained by the Occupation

Former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi during his interview with Editor-in-Chief Ghassan Charbel (Asharq Al-Awsat)
Former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi during his interview with Editor-in-Chief Ghassan Charbel (Asharq Al-Awsat)

How difficult it is to talk about Saddam Hussein, despite the distance that separates us from the date of his execution, on Dec. 30, 2006. The truth is that the man is a provocateur, whether he resided in the palace or lied in the grave. His victims and enemies are many. His supporters are not few.

In Iraq, time does not heal wounds, but rather rubs salt into them. It is not easy for those who paid the price for Saddam’s injustice to read that he was leading resistance against the American occupation or that he was honest in his dealings with public money. Similarly, it is difficult for his supporters to accept that his image is limited to that of a cruel ruler, who bloodied his country and the region.

A few months ago, I met an Iraqi in an Arab capital, who had “working and friendly relations” with Saddam Hussein, paving the way for hundreds of meetings between them. The man asked that his identity remain anonymous for security reasons. He told me that he met Saddam Hussein twice after his ousting. The first was on the outskirts of Fallujah on April 11, 2003, two days after the fall of the regime, and the second was on July 19 in Baghdad, which was then under the control of the US forces.

He narrated that Saddam was close to the Firdos Square, when a US armored vehicle shot down his statue. He added that on the same night, from a nearby secret headquarters, Saddam led the first “resistance” operation against the Americans, which targeted positions of their forces in the vicinity of the Abu Hanifa al-Numan Mosque in Adhamiya, and that he almost personally participated in the attack, but his companions prevented him out of fear for his life.

He stated that Saddam had warned during a meeting in Baghdad in July that the “fall of Iraq will mean the extension of Iran’s influence to the Maghreb.”

The media profession taught us to deal with narrations with the necessary degree of reservation, and to search for more of them. For this purpose, I also met a man who worked in the palace alongside Saddam and asked him about his thoughts. The man criticized the decision to invade Kuwait, but he was keen to point out “the integrity of Saddam, who was accused by the media to have accumulated billions in secret accounts abroad or in his headquarters.”

He stressed that the real corruption occurred after the fall of the regime.

“You could say that he was cruel or even excessively cruel, but he considered plundering public money a kind of treason,” the former Iraqi official said.

He also asserted that Saddam was leading part of the resistance against the American occupation.

Governing Council member and later Prime Minister Iyad Allawi had the opportunity to visit the largest prison camp in modern Iraqi history, but he refused to do so. He recounted that two people abstained from this visit:

“I refrained from going because rejoicing is not our habit, especially when your opponent is not in a position to respond to you. Then, Saddam, despite everything he did to the country and to me personally, was the president of Iraq, and I did not want to see the president of Iraq held captive in an American prison,” Allawi stated.

Allawi was not against bringing Saddam to trial and imposing the necessary punishment on him. He said: “On the day of Saddam’s execution, I felt great pain. I had suggested to the Americans that a dialogue be held with the man, so that he might tell us the story of Iraq over the long years, during which he was the decision maker. I wanted the Iraqis to know what happened in the words of the man himself. Why did he fight Iran, and what were the circumstances of the war? Why did he invade Kuwait and how was the decision made? Why did he execute large numbers of opposition citizens and Baathists as well? Why did he launch terrible wars against the Kurds? Why did he assassinate opponents abroad or attempt to kill them, including me?”

He continued: “A conversation of this kind would have revealed the facts, showed responsibilities, and prompted those who admired Saddam to think about the fruits of his works. Unfortunately, that did not happen. The timing of the execution also increased Iraqis’ sympathy for him. Was it necessary to execute him at dawn on the day of Eid?”

Dismantling the army and the de-Baathification

I asked Allawi about the resistance and terrorism. He said: “The dissolution of the Iraqi army, the dismantling of the Iraqi state, and the de-Baathification measures pushed thousands of military personnel, employees, and partisans into the unknown. It is known that terrorism and terrorists tried to cover up with the resistance. Al-Qaeda, led by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, sought to create one or more rifts in Iraqi society. They found nothing better than to reinforce the sectarian approach through killings, bombings, and assassinations, and sometimes laying accusations against the Shiites, and at other times against the Sunnis.”

He went on to say: “Terrorism also benefited greatly from the de-Baathification... as at least five million Baathists and their families were isolated, uprooted from political and professional life, and deprived of their livelihoods, just as terrorism benefited from the dissolution of the security services and the Iraqi army. All of these were gifts from the occupation to terrorism, which found the appropriate environment to spread its poison in Iraq and work to destroy its social fabric.”

Saddam’s arrest

I asked Allawi again about Saddam, specifically about his relationship with the resistance, he replied: “I was visiting London and heard the news of Saddam Hussein’s arrest. I wasn’t surprised. He is not the type to run away, but rather confront, and he was leading the resistance.”

He recounted a conversation he had with some members of the resistance in Bustan in Abu Ghraib.

“I told a group of them: “It is shameful for you to fall into the hands of Al-Zarqawi when you are members of important tribes and senior military personnel? Why did you hand over your affairs to Al-Zarqawi and become terrorists?” They answered: “We are not terrorists, we are against the Americans.””

“In fact, they all loved Saddam and they still do. You ask me why Saddam remained popular in some circles despite everything he did. The main reason for this popularity is the misbehavior of the current rulers,” he stated.

I had to ask Allawi about Saddam’s involvement in squandering of public money.

Before the US invasion of Iraq, much was written in the international and Arab media about the amazing wealth possessed by Saddam. Some scenarios talked about billions of dollars that he deposited under pseudonyms in distant banks. It was also said that he stored huge amounts of currency, in addition to gold, in his palaces.

Many expected that the US soldiers who raided Saddam’s palaces and residences would succeed in uncovering the amazing wealth. Nothing of this kind happened. It was believed that Saddam, who squandered Iraq’s wealth in wars abroad and internally, must have bought large areas of land or placed his hand on them.

It was natural for the Iraqi opposition, after assuming power, to seek to open Saddam’s financial books. I asked Allawi and he replied: “After the fall of Saddam Hussein, we conducted investigations and did not find anything against him (on the financial issue). We did not find a property registered in his name. Everything is registered in the name of the Iraqi government, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the Revolutionary Command Council... Even his private plane belonged to a company owned by an Iraqi intelligence group. I mean the private plane that flies long distances.”

“He did neither like money and nor was he looking for it. He aimed for power and influence. This is Saddam. He was conservative on a personal level...very conservative,” Allawi said.



Goldrich to Asharq Al-Awsat: No US Withdrawal from Syria

US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Ethan Goldrich during the interview with Asharq Al-Awsat
US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Ethan Goldrich during the interview with Asharq Al-Awsat
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Goldrich to Asharq Al-Awsat: No US Withdrawal from Syria

US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Ethan Goldrich during the interview with Asharq Al-Awsat
US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Ethan Goldrich during the interview with Asharq Al-Awsat

Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Ethan Goldrich has told Asharq Al-Awsat that the US does not plan to withdraw its forces from Syria.

The US is committed to “the partnership that we have with the local forces that we work with,” he said.

Here is the full text of the interview.

Question: Mr. Goldrich, thank you so much for taking the time to sit with us today. I know you are leaving your post soon. How do you assess the accomplishments and challenges remaining?

Answer: Thank you very much for the chance to talk with you today. I've been in this position for three years, and so at the end of three years, I can see that there's a lot that we accomplished and a lot that we have left to do. But at the beginning of a time I was here, we had just completed a review of our Syria policy, and we saw that we needed to focus on reducing suffering for the people in Syria. We needed to reduce violence. We needed to hold the regime accountable for things that are done and most importantly, from the US perspective, we needed to keep ISIS from reemerging as a threat to our country and to other countries. At the same time, we also realized that there wouldn't be a solution to the crisis until there was a political process under resolution 2254, so in each of these areas, we've seen both progress and challenges, but of course, on ISIS, we have prevented the reemergence of the threat from northeast Syria, and we've helped deal with people that needed to be repatriated out of the prisons, and we dealt with displaced people in al-Hol to reduce the numbers there. We helped provide for stabilization in those parts of Syria.

Question: I want to talk a little bit about the ISIS situation now that the US troops are still there, do you envision a timeline where they will be withdrawn? Because there were some reports in the press that there is a plan from the Biden administration to withdraw.

Answer: Yeah. So right now, our focus is on the mission that we have there to keep ISIS from reemerging. So I know there have been reports, but I want to make clear that we remain committed to the role that we play in that part of Syria, to the partnership that we have with the local forces that we work with, and to the need to prevent that threat from reemerging.

Question: So you can assure people who are saying that you might withdraw, that you are remaining for the time being?

Answer: Yes, and that we remain committed to this mission which needs to continue to be pursued.

Question: You also mentioned the importance of humanitarian aid. The US has been leading on this. Are you satisfied with where you are today on the humanitarian front in Syria?

Answer: We remain committed to the role that we play to provide for humanitarian assistance in Syria. Of the money that was pledged in Brussels, we pledged $593 million just this past spring, and we overall, since the beginning of the conflict, have provided $18 billion both to help the Syrians who are inside of Syria and to help the refugees who are in surrounding countries. And so we remain committed to providing that assistance, and we remain keenly aware that 90% of Syrians are living in poverty right now, and that there's been suffering there. We're doing everything we can to reduce the suffering, but I think where we would really like to be is where there's a larger solution to the whole crisis, so Syrian people someday will be able to provide again for themselves and not need this assistance.

Question: And that's a perfect key to my next question. Solution in Syria. you are aware that the countries in the region are opening up to Assad again, and you also have the EU signaling overture to the Syrian regime and Assad. How do you deal with that?

Answer: For the United States, our policy continues to be that we will not normalize with the regime in Syria until there's been authentic and enduring progress on the goals of resolution 2254, until the human rights of the Syrian people are respected and until they have the civil and human rights that they deserve. We know other countries have engaged with the regime. When those engagements happen, we don't support them, but we remind the countries that are engaged that they should be using their engagements to push forward on the shared international goals under 2254, and that whatever it is that they're doing should be for the sake of improving the situation of the Syrian people.

Question: Let's say that all of the countries decided to talk to Assad, aren’t you worried that the US will be alienated in the process?

Answer: The US will remain true to our own principles and our own policies and our own laws, and the path for the regime in Syria to change its relationship with us is very clear, if they change the behaviors that led to the laws that we have and to the policies that we have, if those behaviors change and the circumstances inside of Syria change, then it's possible to have a different kind of relationship, but that's where it has to start.

Question: My last question to you before you leave, if you have to pick one thing that you need to do in Syria today, what is it that you would like to see happening today?

Answer: So there are a number of things, I think that will always be left and that there are things that we will try to do, to try to make them happen. We want to hold people accountable in Syria for things that have happened. So even today, we observed something called the International Day for victims of enforced disappearances, there are people that are missing, and we're trying to draw attention to the need to account for the missing people. So our step today was to sanction a number of officials who were responsible for enforced disappearances, but we also created something called the independent institution for missing persons, and that helps the families, in the non-political way, get information on what's happened. So I'd like to see some peace for the families of the missing people. I'd like to see the beginning of a political process, there hasn't been a meeting of the constitutional committee in two years, and I think that's because the regime has not been cooperating in political process steps. So we need to change that situation. And I would, of course, like it's important to see the continuation of the things that we were talking about, so keeping ISIS from reemerging and maintaining assistance as necessary in the humanitarian sphere. So all these things, some of them are ongoing, and some of them remain to be achieved. But the Syrian people deserve all aspects of our policy to be fulfilled and for them to be able to return to a normal life.